Why Should Audiences Trust You? with Audio Branding Host Jodi Krangle, Part 2

This transcript was auto-generated from an audio recording. Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Interviewing is an art form. And it's a leadership talent. You might not think of it that way, but it takes a bunch of skills and a lot of practice to become an empathetic and insightful interviewer. Today on part two of my conversation with Audio Branding host Jodi Krangle, we talk about the surprising challenges she faced as she grew her podcast.

Jodi is a very experienced voice actor. She's used to saying other people's words. She's not a journalist. Today, Jodi shares the kinds of skills she had to learn on the job, like taking control of a conversation, listening deeply, standing in for the listener, and especially thinking on her feet. So storytellers, if you conduct interviews, and I know you do, listen all the way through this bonus episode. You'll learn more about why sound matters and you'll definitely come away as a better interviewer and probably as a better leader, too. 

Welcome to Sound Judgment, where we investigate just what it takes to become a beloved host. I'm Elaine Appleton Grant.

Elaine Appleton Grant 

Storytellers, my conversation with Jodi has been broken into two parts. Today's is part two. It's fine to listen to it on its own, but you may want to go back one week and listen to part one. Jodi is also running both of these episodes on her very fine podcast, Audio Branding. 

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Elaine Appleton Grant: Do you know we have a free Sound Judgment newsletter full of guidance on how to make great creative choices in audio storytelling? Join subscribers from NPR, PRX, PRPD, Stanford, Spotify, and more. Visit podcastallies.com to subscribe. The link's also in the show notes on your favorite podcast app. Now, let's get into it. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

I was very taken…I was listening to—you do two part episodes. I was listening to episodes 77 and 78. 

Jodi Krangle

Yes, Tom Eymundson.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah. Thank you for pronouncing that for me. I really appreciate it. You saw me go, I don't know how to say this. 

Jodi Krangle

It's spelled strangely, but yeah, it's, it's Eymundson.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yes, and he is the CEO of Pirate, Pirate Branding? Pirate—I can't think of the name of it. 

Jodi Krangle

Pirate Studios. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Pirate Studios. Sorry.

Jodi Krangle

They do a lot of really interesting things in that they do audio branding as well as just straight producing of commercials and whatever else they're doing there. And Pirate Studios in downtown Toronto is actually a really popular place that a lot of my voiceover colleagues have been to, including myself. So it's a wonderful place to be. And they've actually just made a new office. They've actually completely moved somewhere else and built it from the bottom up and it's looking beautiful.

Elaine Appleton Grant

That is like—as a sound person, I just covet a studio built from the ground up. Yeah. What I found really interesting was you asked him a very simple question, which was, why does sound matter? I mean, you know, the backdrop is: big companies will spend millions coming up with the right tone that plays after you swipe your credit card, or the jingle that always plays at the beginning of a commercial, or choosing a particular voice talent among many auditions. And you asked him why it mattered. And do you recall his answer or how you would phrase his answer? 

Jodi Krangle

I know that he talked about how it's a deeper connection with the audience. And I have spoken about this in many other of the podcasts that I do. It's all about emotional context. And he also mentioned that whole we don't buy with logic, we buy with emotion. And so, it's a way for people—I think he worded it as to make sure that you are going beyond the product itself.

So you're selling something unique, distinct and ownable and your sound should reflect that. So it's one of those things about building a company DNA and that the sound is a part of that. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah. Yeah, unique, distinct and ownable. And he said that sound plays a very important role in creating something that is unique, distinct and ownable. And that ownable thing really stood out to me because it was part of a larger discussion that he said about how people don't buy based on product or service anymore because there's so much competition. They buy based on the relationship you build with them and how they feel about you. And that's why sound is so important. Is that how you define the importance of sound in audio branding, in advertising, marketing, in human behavior?

Jodi Krangle

Yeah, that's definitely a big part of it. I would also say that part of what he might also be referring to is the fact that a lot of people tack on license-free music from a directory and think that they've got an audio brand. And they don't.

’Cause the bottom line of that is, again, when he talks about ownable, yeah, you have a license to use that music, but so does your competitor. So does someone in a completely different industry from you. So you don't really quote own that, right? It's not really yours, which is why having an audio brand, something that is specific to your company, that was made specifically for you, that can age and change and transform as your company transforms and stay with you over time. That's why that's so important. Because your clients, your customers, the people who are familiar with you, know you as a certain thing. And if you change, what's that one thing that they're going to still relate to as you change? And I would say that there's a combination there. 

You know, definitely your logo could go through a transformation, but your sound can also go through a transformation. And your sound is that emotional context that I've referred to many times. So it's that emotional connection. And yeah, I think he's come across many people who said, oh, let's put a sonic logo on it. And, they'll come up with a five note mnemonic for no reason over a Saturday and then never use it because it had no logic behind the creation of it. There was no reason for it to be. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Well, and that is also something you asked before, about common problems with new podcasters. And this is true of companies and organizations. They can be very large, very well-funded organizations. It doesn't really matter. They'll say, we wanna have a podcast. Well, why do you wanna have a podcast? Well, because everybody else has a podcast. 

Jodi Krangle

Yes.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Or because we want to get our message across. Well, that's not a podcast. That's an ad. Go buy ads on somebody else's show. 

Jodi Krangle

Yeah, exactly. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Or they simply don't really know. They think it would be a good vehicle, but they don't really know. And therefore, it's very hard to make it succeed, which is—he was talking about the same thing with a mnemonic? 

Jodi Krangle

Yeah, so that's basically five notes, a sonic logo. That's kind of what he's referring to. But if you're talking about why a brand should have an audio brand, why should a brand have a podcast? 

Elaine Appleton Grant

And what I was taken by is that they go through this very detailed strategy work upfront so that there is a rationale behind the music you choose. I actually worked with a sound designer to choose the music for my show, Sound Judgment. And that was really interesting. 

Jodi Krangle

It’s more than the music, though.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Oh, it's way more than the music. That's just a little tiny piece of it. And so like when I work with organizations, it's a ton of strategy first. It's wrapping your head around why, what, for whom, what's the tone? What do you want this to sound like? What are you trying to communicate? How does it work with all your other communications? 

Jodi Krangle

That's a good one.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah, you know, and are you doing the level of quality of your other media, whatever you're putting out? It could be blog posts, it could be ads, it could be anything else that you're doing. And because—this doesn't happen as much as it used to, but even just a few years ago, podcasting was so new and so hot that even big organizations with very well thought out beautiful professional communications work would say, Oh, sure—to the intern—you want to do a podcast, go do it in the basement. It's fine. Go do whatever you want. And that's a really bad idea. It's better to not have one than to have it take away from the brand that you are trying to communicate. 

Jodi Krangle

Exactly. Yeah. And the same thing happened with audio branding until—really, up until MasterCard started really making it a big deal, actually. MasterCard did a whole audio brand maybe three or four years now. And really until I heard about that—and Gary V did a bit of a thing, I think he started talking about this in 2014. I know that it was a thing before that. And I know there were people that were doing this before that, but it was not a going concern the same way the podcasts weren't really a going concern.

Up until maybe a couple of years before the pandemic. And then it started becoming a much more going concern type thing. But the same way that you were saying, oh yeah, okay, let's have a podcast and the intern can do it in the basement. That's kind of how they thought of audio branding at the beginning, too. Oh, let's just stick a sonic logo on this and play it everywhere. And that's how it'll work. Right? But that's not really how you can take the most advantage of having an audio brand. There's so much more to it. Just like there is so much more to having a podcast. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Right. And being a great host. Yeah. I am curious, Jodi, what…

Over, as we said, it's been a couple of years and you've been both consistent and prolific, which is quite a feat. You should be very proud of yourself. No podfading for you because you're very organized. 

Jodi Krangle

I'm also stubborn. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

And stubbornness helps a lot. Yeah, we should talk about what mindset helps with all of this. But I'm curious, what have you learned about yourself, hosting this podcast, that you didn't expect to learn? 

Jodi Krangle

Mm. And I definitely want to ask you the same question, because I think that's a fascinating question. As far as myself, I didn't think that I was a speaker of any kind. I mean, I thought that I would be—I mean, voiceover, I'm used to having a script, right? Someone gives me a script and I'm used to reading someone else's words and making them seem like they're my own. Which I can do. That's what I'm hired to do. I've been doing this full time for 15 years. So it's something I can do. 

But actually speaking my own words and making them sound like someone should care about them, for instance. And having a podcast where I'm hoping that someone is going to care about what I'm speaking about, and being passionate enough to get that thought across, is a lot more work than I thought it would be, but it's also really rewarding. And that's kind of what keeps me going as well, because I'm pretty passionate about what I talk about. And I like getting that across to people. How I get that across has been something I've had to learn, because I say ums and you know and like and all of these things very, very often. And it's something that I definitely need to train myself more on.

I don't think I will ever be perfect as far as that is concerned. And a lot of us, I think, go through the same issue, but being able to speak my mind on the spur of the moment as a host, asking questions about what I am curious about and being an active listener in the moment when I'm talking with someone, that is something that I've had to learn. Because being a host is very different from being a guest, as you probably know. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yes, it is. 

Jodi Krangle

Yeah. So not only do you need to lead the conversation, but you need to ask the questions that you think your audience would want to know the answers to. And that becomes a skill, very much a skill. And it's a skill that I will probably never stop learning. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

I think that is…You just hit the nail on the head that there's no end to the learning. That's a big part of why I started this podcast is because I, gosh, I've been, you know, reading about story structure and leads and writing since I was, I don't know, 15 or 16. I'm from a family of journalists. My father had an ad agency and a sound studio in our basement. 

Jodi Krangle

Wow. That's pretty awesome to grow up with. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah. I mean, it was small, but you know, this is not—this was in the DNA, I guess. 

Jodi Krangle

Sure.

Elaine Appleton

But I've always been—I've always read everything I could get my hands on about writing, and then audio storytelling. It's a little surprising that I've never really made the leap to video, but I'm happy here. 

Jodi Krangle

I agree, yeah. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah, and so part of it just came from my own—what can I learn from these people who are so varied, so different in their talents, in their tone, their style, their content, and yet they're magnetic to their audiences. I love learning this stuff. So the passion I can see will keep me going for a long time, but the learning never stops. You can always improve at both of these skills, I think. 

Jodi Krangle

Yeah. Yeah, very much so. It's something that never ends. And yeah, I don't see an end in sight. I mean, 160 episodes and I'm still going and I still have people to talk to. So yeah, I mean, it just, it kind of never ends. But yeah, there are some—probably you've come across this—there are some universal qualities and skills that go into what you talk about with the hostiness. 

And did you define that before? I don't know if you actually said what that was.

Elaine Appleton Grant

I may not have answered your question. Well, because… 

Jodi Krangle

It's okay. We've been all over here. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yes. And this is why a framework script is so helpful. 

Jodi Krangle

Yes.

Elaine Appleton Grant

I did not answer the question of define hostiness because if you look in Webster's, it's not there. The story that I have about that word is that—I put out on LinkedIn that I was working on a project, I didn't say what it was, that was going to be looking at the qualities of beloved podcast hosts. And John Barth, who we talked about earlier, wrote to me. I did not know him—I had met him once—and said, oh, we used to talk about hostiness all the time at PRX. And I said, what? And so when I got a chance to interview him, I said, what is this made up word? 

And he started to laugh and he said, what is hostiness? That must be why we talked about it all the time. Because it's sort of like saying, what is star quality in Hollywood? Well, you know it when you see it or you feel it or you hear it, but you can't say it's the same thing with everybody. What he arrived at is: it's that feeling that when you meet somebody that you never want the conversation to end or that you see them on stage—perhaps, he said, you see them on stage and you never want that performance to end. You just want to be there.

I think it is a combination of many things. And my quest with Sound Judgment, and it has become a quest, is to try to identify some universal qualities so that we can say hostiness is made up of these 10 things. 

They look different for different people. So for instance, one of them that is readily apparent to me, even just after a very short season, is—or maybe many, many years in radio. 

Jodi Krangle

I'm sure that helps. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Doesn't hurt. Is the ability to provide psychological safety, both to your guest or your sources, right? In narrative nonfiction, you may be talking to many, many people, but they're not guests. You're researching, you're reporting. And actually to yourself as well. Because if you as a host don't feel safe, you're going to be unnatural, to get back to that whole thing. And people do it in very different ways and for very different reasons. When Stephanie Wittels Wachs of Last Day, who—that is a narrative nonfiction, very emotional podcast that deals with substance abuse and suicide and guns—goes to interview a couple who lost their son to suicide by a gun, the ability to create psychological safety with that couple, the skills involved, the way they go about that…

And I say they because there's a team in that case. Is very different than the psychological safety that say, Ann Bogel, who's the host of What Should I Read Next?, offers to the mother and daughter pair who are 50 and 80,  coming on the show to say, What should I read next? Here's what I've read for the last X number of years, and I'm looking for a new book. Totally different. 

But the quality, the need to build that relationship, appears to me to be universal. So many different ways to go about it. So that's one. Another is that genuineness. I am who I am. I'm not trying to be Ira Glass, or trying to be Walter Cronkite, or whatever. I know my own voice and I can be comfortable with it and therefore we hear that.

Jodi Krangle

And considering when we hear that in a voice, because that kind of leads to another question, in that we create deeper connections with our voices, but are there voices that we trust more than others and why would that be?

So, you know, knowing yourself and being able to get across the idea that you are genuinely being yourself is probably a big part of that. But I'm curious if there are others that you might have come across. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

I love the question, why do we trust some voices more than others? And that is a question that I'm going to add to my quest to define hostiness.

Honestly, because when I think of very famous hosts, and they may have started in radio and their shows have become podcasts. Ira Glass is an obvious one. Terry Gross is perhaps the most famous of hosts that way who we trust. There are other hosts who some people absolutely adore, but others find grating, like Krista Tippett of On Being has been on the radio and in podcasts for 20 years or so. And she's beloved by some and others are like, oh, I just can't even listen. 

And so part—there is a certain amount of, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There's also another really important question, which just gets more important by the day. And this goes right back to trust, is who's the listener and where does culture and race and ethnicity and age come in? 

Jodi Krangle

Good questions. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Right. So, you know, I have a very close friend, Denise Soler Cox, who is a filmmaker and she's had a podcast. She's a public speaker. And she is Latina. And she talks about...well, the name of her film is Being Eñye. And an Eñye, in her definition, is someone who was born here, but has at least one parent who was born in a non-English speaking country, in a Spanish speaking country. And it is a very large and very rapidly growing population of people from all over—any Spanish speaking country, from Mexico to Spain, to the Caribbean, you name it. And, it's not a monolithic group. They often get treated that way. And so more and more, we're wanting to hear voices that speak to us. So, you know, I interviewed Pabel Martinez from a show called ¿Quién Tú Eres?, which means, Who Are You? And he is—I believe he was maybe born in New York, raised in New York, but he's Dominican. Of Dominican descent. He would be an Eñye. And his show is for Latinx professionals, and everything that they go through. And he's speaking very directly with them and for them. And if I tried to have a show about the same topic for them, they would laugh me out of the room. 

Jodi Krangle

Oh, of course. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

I have no credibility whatsoever. So I think that there is a piece of that that is very cultural and very important that we don't really talk about that much. 

Jodi Krangle

Well, I love that podcasting is going there, right? Podcasting can go there because there's—anyone can get involved.

Diversity of voice is needed and craved. And people, just like they like to see themselves on screen, they like to hear themselves in radio and in podcasting. So I think that the whole wide world is open as far as podcasting is concerned. And I love that about the medium. And definitely this is something that is filtering into voiceovers as well, because now you're hearing a lot more diverse voices.

Yes, I present as a white woman in mid age, so there's a lot of me out there. But there could be less of me and it would not take away from the fact that other people should hear themselves. I'm not worried that I'm going to get less work, let's just say. That's not the issue for me. The issue is that I want everyone to be represented so that they can recognize themselves and then go out into the world feeling proud of who they are, because that's important for all of us. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

It is absolutely, it is crucial for all of us to be able to be empowered and act in the world and to—you know, we are rapidly becoming in the US a majority minority country. And I believe that'll be by 2050 or so. And so a lot of this is following the culture, following the demographics. And I mean, there's a lot to say about that, of course. 

Jodi Krangle

But well, it's not a zero sum game, right? Just because someone else has more doesn't mean I have less. Do you know what I mean? 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Oh no, no. 

Jodi Krangle

Yeah. And that's a big issue. I think a lot of people are coming to terms with that, and you know, they need to pay attention to that. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

It's a very big issue. I mean, it's a big issue in Hollywood and also just gender, for instance. So I remember, in my thirties, I did some voice talent coaching and went on some auditions. I mean, I never took it seriously the way you have. And at the time, I remember people still wouldn't hire women very much, because if there needed to be authority, the conventional wisdom was, well— 

Jodi Krangle

A man has to do that. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

A man has to do that. And I don't remember—I remember being so unconscious at the time that it was just like, oh, okay, that's too bad. Well, luckily, I assume, I mean, has that changed in the voice talent business?

Jodi Krangle

It definitely has changed. Yeah, there are more women doing promo. There are more women—when I say promo, I mean announcing TV, on the TV, on the channels, saying what show is coming up, etc., etc. Like you would never—years ago, you wouldn't hear women doing that at all. And now they are. Yeah. So I mean, it depends on the network. Generally, you have a feel of a voice for a feel of a network. So you kind of go, that goes hand in hand. That's a lot like audio branding, right? But they never would hire women for trailers and anything healthcare related. Normally, they wanted the doctor voice. They didn't want the nurse voice.

Elaine Appleton Grant

The doctor voice was defined as a middle-aged white man or older, right? 

Jodi Krangle

Exactly. Yes. Exactly. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Marcus Welby, back in my mother's day.

Jodi Krangle

Or car commercials. You would never hear a woman on a car commercial. Now that happens all the time. Not as much as we would wish. But it does happen a lot more often than it used to.

So there are industries—tech is another one of those, right? Normally you wouldn't hear a lot of women on tech commercials. Now you're hearing a lot of millennial and younger women on tech commercials, which I think is awesome. So there's a lot going on there, and I think it has to do with the fact that the current buying generations want authenticity in their voice and less put on. So that becomes less about gender and more about who am I hearing that sounds like me? 

Elaine Appleton Grant

That's exactly right. And this was very interesting, was, NPR and I believe it was Edison Research, teamed up in 2021. And they did a big research study and focus groups about why people listen. And across ages, the number one reason is multitasking. It's exactly what you were saying before. Well, I'm washing the dishes, I'm walking the dog, I can listen. But—and also a commonality was to learn new things. But when they looked at younger listeners, which is the fastest growing group, I think it was probably 18 to 34 or something, they had a few very distinct and very interesting reasons. 

One was to get fresh perspectives that I can't find anywhere else. Well, what does that mean? Does that mean—maybe it means I'm finally getting this perspective of what it's like to be a Latinx professional in the corporate world, and how hard that is. That's a perspective I'm not hearing somewhere else. I'm not really sure. I mean, there's a lot of—it’s very segmented, right? You can hear—well, I'm hearing all about how sci-fi novels are written. Just because I'm a sci-fi fan. 

So the fresh perspective, a sense of belonging. There's a sense of I'm in the community with you. It's that “with” part. And I feel seen. Someone understands who I am. 

Jodi Krangle

That is so important. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

They sound like me. They talk about what I'm interested in. That was just, I mean, it just gives me chills to think about. 

Jodi Krangle

Definitely. Yeah. And it's so important because we all need to be seen. We all need to feel like we're a part of something. Most people, I won't say everyone, but most people. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

99%. Even if it's a very tiny group. We all want to belong. 

Jodi Krangle

There's no universals here, but yeah. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah. Exactly.

Jodi Krangle

So I wanted to ask you what you are working on now that you can talk about. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah. I'm working on a bunch of different things that are so interesting. I've had some wonderful interviews that, by the time this airs, may have aired on Sound Judgment already. One I referred to before, which is Glynn Washington, who is the host of Snap Judgment, who—Snap Judgment has been on the air across 500 public radio stations since 2010. 

Jodi Krangle

Oh, wow. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

And it's a podcast as well. And he gets something like 2 million listeners a month. One of these single best storytellers I have ever heard. What was interesting about him is he told me a great story, which I won't divulge here. 

Jodi Krangle

We'll have to listen. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

You'll have to listen. That the word hostiness literally changed his life. 

Jodi Krangle

Oh wow, okay. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Literally changed it. My jaw dropped. So I'm very excited about that. I mentioned my interview with Jay Baer. That one was fascinating. Another one—here's something that I did not expect about doing Sound Judgment. And that is where some of these interviews go.

So I interviewed, recently, a host of a cooking show. And—

Jodi Krangle

Interesting. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yes, so much fun. The prep made me very, very hungry. 

Jodi Krangle

I can imagine. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

All the Instagram pictures. And her show is not active right now. In fact, it stopped a year ago. I thought I knew the reason why, and it was a very mundane, new job kind of reason. And the day I spoke with her, she told me about the death of one parent and the impending death of another. And we spent a lot of time talking about grief and the intersection of our real lives with the work. And I think one of the things I didn't expect was how very quickly these conversations get deep, because what I've come to believe is what we bring to the mic is our humanity and how comfortable we are with it. And whether we can embrace all parts of it, and whether we can help other people embrace all parts of their humanity.

And so what I thought was going to be a very surface level kind of—let's talk about cooking show hosts! Turned into something incredibly different and astonishingly moving. 

Jodi Krangle

Those are the best shows, the ones that come out unexpectedly. Yeah. I'll look forward to hearing that. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah. Thank you. How about you? What are you working on that you're excited about?

Jodi Krangle

Well, I'm going to be actually doing a talk in Podfest, which by the time this comes out, will already be done. But we're going to be talking about how to supplement promoting your podcast on social audio. So things like Clubhouse and Twitter Spaces and LinkedIn Lives and things like that. So yeah, it'll be a really interesting conversation, myself and three other panelists. I'm going to be leading a chat, kind of like I do in my Clubhouses. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

And you have been extremely busy with social audio in addition to producing this great podcast and it's been really impressive to see you building a community and leading a variety of these conversations. I think I've dipped in once or twice, but I always intend to get there more often. And to try it myself. It's one thing to be behind a mic and it's another thing entirely to be sort of out there live. 

Jodi Krangle

Yeah, it's a different kind of hosting. It's kind of like a—put the question out there so that people can start a conversation. Not just with one person, but with multiple people. Which then becomes a moderating kind of job, because then you kind of need to—is someone taking too long? Are they not saying enough? Do you need to prompt them more? Is there more that could be said? Do you need to take a question from the audience? You know, this kind of stuff. So lots of other things going on while you are in that conversation. So it's teaching me a lot. And I think that my lessons from being on Clubhouse will help me do the panel in Podfest. 

So yeah, that's going to be an interesting—we'll see how they relate. I'm getting a lot more comfortable with it, let's say.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Well, there's a lot of thinking on your feet. 

Jodi Krangle

Yes, yeah, there is. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Right? And I think that's something that comes somewhat naturally to longtime journalists, right? Because we don't know what to expect in many, many situations, in most situations. 

Jodi Krangle

Sure. Yeah. For me, it's something brand new, though. That's something that I've had to learn as I do this. So...

Elaine Appleton Grant

There's a big difference between scripts and not scripts. 

Jodi Krangle

Very much so. Very much so, yes. So I'm learning what it means to be off the cuff a lot more than I was when I started this, let's just say. 

But I'm going to be away for a little bit and taking a bit of a break from Clubhouse and from producing the podcast while I'm away. So I'm just sort of gearing up for that little holiday, and Podfest is happening at the end of that holiday, large podcasting convention that I'm hoping a lot of people who are listening may actually go to, or have been to in the past. And it's quite a gathering of family, actually. I really enjoy being with the people there. So I'm looking forward. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

The Podfest people are really wonderful. They really, really are. 

Jodi Krangle

It's fantastic. But yeah, there's—

Elaine Appleton Grant

And you are also getting your jazz band together. Right? 

Jodi Krangle

Ah, yes. Yeah. Well, we haven't done that in three years. And so part of the trip that I'm doing is to sing with a nine-piece jazz swing band at a music conference that I haven't been to in three years. And so traveling across the US to meet with my band members and rehearse and then go to the convention, and then off to somewhere else after that. So yeah.

It'll be fun and rewarding on a very deep level, actually, because I haven't seen these people in three years, and getting to perform with them is—there's nothing like it. There's just really nothing like it. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

There really is nothing like performing in front of an audience. 

Jodi Krangle

It's different and I don't do it a lot. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah. As we sit in our little home studios here.

Jodi Krangle

So how can people find out more information about you, Elaine? 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Well the easiest place to go is podcastallies.com, which is my company website. And the Sound Judgment podcast is a page on that website. And I'm Elaine A. Grant on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

Jodi Krangle

Okay.

Elaine Appleton grant

But the place there that I am most active when it comes to social media is LinkedIn. And so just searching for Elaine Appleton Grant on LinkedIn. But of course, you can get to me in any of those places from the website, podcast allies.com. 

Jodi Krangle

Sure. And I'll put that in the show notes as well. Yeah. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Oh, thank you. And how can people find you Jodi?

Jodi Krangle

Well, I am at voiceoversandvocals.com and again, the page for the podcast is audiobrandingpodcast.com, which goes to a page on the first website that I mentioned. So it's all there. And I am Jodi Krangle on all the social medias. LinkedIn is probably the best place to reach me, again, you can find me by my name.

But I'm on Facebook and Twitter, and I'm also testing Mastodon and Post. So these are some interesting places that—they're not quite mainstream just yet, but I'm finding them really interesting. An illustrator, a children's illustrator friend of mine, one of my music partners from way, way back actually, a woman named Debbie Ridpath Ohi. She's got a Post.

She started working on putting up longer posts that are almost blog-like on Post. And Post allows you to do things like format what you're putting up there. So you can add bold and underline and italics and stuff like that, and use different fonts. And it's actually really an interesting medium that I'm experimenting with. So yeah. I'm enjoying it. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah, the whole topic of conversation about the podcast community and whether to stay on Twitter or go somewhere else, and where to go. Big question. 

Jodi Krangle

Mastodon seems to be a lot of the place where some people are going, but I think Post might be a really good option for those who like posting longer posts, because Mastodon has a character limit and Post kind of really doesn't. So…

Elaine Appleton Grant

I am watching the development of something new called Spoutable. 

Jodi Krangle

Oh, interesting. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Which is an alternative to those. Which is being developed by a guy who specializes in sort of online safety. 

Jodi Krangle

Ah, okay. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Which I think is very, very important. 

Jodi Krangle

Very. Yeah. Well, we'll have to see how this develops over time. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Exactly. 

Jodi Krangle

But thank you so much. This has been the most awesome conversation. So much fun. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

This has been so much fun. Jodi, you and I always have a lot to talk about. I love the overlaps between our industries and between our curiosities and how much I learn from your show that I go—huh, you know, that applies to podcast hosting. 

Jodi Krangle

And likewise. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

That makes sense. 

Jodi Krangle

Yeah. There's a lot to learn in both industries. And I think, as you say, they relate a lot to each other. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

We'll have to do a Twitter Space conversation together. 

Jodi Krangle

I would love that. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Or a Mastodon Space or Clubhouse or something, some online conversation somewhere. 

Jodi Krangle

Yeah. I have Clubhouse conversations on podcasting all the time. So yeah, I would love to do that. That would be great. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Terrific. Thanks, Jodi. 

Jodi Krangle

Thank you.

Elaine Appleton Grant

I really enjoyed that conversation with Jodi. If you now want to know more about how sound influences us and how the many different makers in the audio branding world make their work, make sure to follow Jodi's show, Audio Branding. I've been listening for the last two years and I always learn something new. There's a link to it in the show notes. They're on our site, podcastallies.com, along with a full transcript.  You can watch shorts from Audio Branding on Jodi's YouTube channel at JodiKrangleVO. That's Jodi with an I, J-O-D-I. 

At the end of every episode, I give you a few takeaways. Here are today's.

1. Why does sound matter? Let's take a look at the advertising industry for some clues. They spend millions of dollars crafting the right sounds and voices. Why? Because they know that sound can create deeper connections with the audience. We don't buy things because of logic, but because we feel deeply connected to somebody. Brands use sound to communicate something distinct, unique, and ownable. So how are you using audio to create that deeper connection with your audience and to communicate just how special and different you are from the crowd?
2. Storytellers, if you work for an organization or a brand, you may already have a podcast or be thinking about starting one. When you do, make sure it not only integrates with the rest of your communications, but also that it's as high quality as everything else you put out into the world. If I learned anything from talking with Jodi, it's that your sonic brand is worth millions and that audio creates a brand just as much as your visuals do.
3. Mindset is a big part of becoming a great host. When she started hosting, Jodi, who, as we know, makes her living using her voice, had to overcome one big negative belief. I didn't think I was a speaker of any kind, she told me. It was hard for her to speak her own words, to believe that she had something worth saying, and to be passionate enough to get her thoughts across. That was all harder than she expected, but she persevered. All of this is learnable, and mindset is the first thing we often need to change.

That's it for today. Thanks for being with me on Sound Judgment. If you learned something from this two-part episode, please share it with a friend, or even better: give us a short review on Apple Podcasts or shout it out on social media. Everything you do helps our new show grow. Thank you. 

Sound Judgment is a production of Podcast Allies. It's produced by me, Elaine Appleton Grant. Sound design and editing by production manager Andrew Parella. Our cover art is by Sarah Edgell. Podcast management by Tina Bassir. 

Coming up on the next episode, have you ever wanted to make an audio documentary? They're among the most impactful and award-winning shows out there, and often for good reason. But how do you do it? And how do you sell one? A leader from a top NPR affiliate station talks me through their green light process. And we dissect the making of a This American Life story.