How to Tell the Truth: The Art of Memoir with Dana Black

This transcript was auto-generated from an audio recording. Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Dana Black's mother looked like Vanna White, which is to say very much like Dana herself. She was simultaneously perky and glamorous, blonde with a Texas-sized smile and chocolate brown eyes. To look at her pictures is to imagine a party, a chiffon evening gown, clinking glasses—and also school lunches packed in brown bags, American Girl dolls, and homemade Christmas ornaments.

This is the vivid, nuanced portrait of a beautiful mother that I hold in my brain after just a few minutes listening to Dana Black's stunning podcast, I Swear on My Mother's Grave. But it's not the whole portrait because in addition to loving Dana, her mother also loved vodka, opioids, and refusing therapy. She died in 2016, leaving Dana behind with no words with which to make sense of having lost a very imperfect mother, one who both loved her and failed her wholeheartedly. 

Dana started I Swear On My Mother's Grave, as so many podcasters do, as a way to express the unexpressed, to share the once unshareable in hopes that we will find, in fact, that we're not alone. 

Recording of Dana Black

The mom I knew was already gone, and it was painful to watch and confusing and embarrassing, and I did not want to talk about it. With anyone. 

But now I do. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

The word intimacy is thrown around too much in podcasting. It's a cliche. But what does it take to create it intentionally? Do it well, as Dana Black does, and that's when listeners come back again and again. 

It's our Mother's Day episode. An episode for storytellers who know that truth is a kaleidoscope, not a Hallmark card.

We're going to delve into creating a relationship with your listeners that's so intimate that they have your back. On Sound Judgment, where we investigate just what it takes to become a beloved podcast host by pulling apart one episode at a time together. I'm Elaine Appleton Grant.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Dana Black, I'm so glad to have you here. 

Dana Black

Thank you for having me, Elaine. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

It's really a joy. I ran into your podcast several months ago and knew almost instantly, I want to have you on, and I want to have you on for Mother's Day. So here we are. 

Dana Black

All the feels. All the feels. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Aw. So Sound Judgment started because I wanted to focus on what does it take to become a beloved host. And of course, what that means really is: what does it take to create a podcast or a radio show or really any other kind of out loud creation that listeners fall in love with? It sounds like you really wanted to share your feelings with an audience in the hopes that maybe it would help them. What's your relationship with the audience? 

Dana Black

I mean, I feel like they're a confidant, you know, and they're someone, I want to put out good content that they can relate to, but I also want to, I kind of want to, I want to surprise them. And I also… 

But I want to feel really safe and know that I can say anything and that they've got me. And that I can change the format and they've got me, and that they can trust me. 

And I want to hear if anything I'm saying is resonating. It can be a lonely game, and you're putting something out into the void. So a lot of people told me by listening to me—not only people I knew, but random strangers—were like, you helped me get through. I listened to you when I was pregnant, I listened to you in the early days of the birth of my child, whatever it is that people were going through, I felt really grateful to be able to be with them and then hear from them. If I could hear, please message me, let me know, what do you think, what are you hearing, what are you getting from this, is this resonating with you? So I think they are a confidant and I just, I wanted to feel less alone in that time of those early days of the pandemic. And I certainly have felt less alone since then, and then some. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

What's one response that you got from one listener that stays with you? 

Dana Black

Oh gosh. I always think about the phrase when someone said, where has this show been my whole life? And then: the show is about what it's like to be someone's child.

I'd never thought about it that way. I was like, really? That's what it is to you? It's not just about our dead moms or our complicated moms. And part of me wanted to kind of go back to that kid—which is the episode we might talk about, right? I'm sort of healing and kind of saying hi again. Hi, I miss you. I miss that mom. I miss my childhood. I miss that, yeah. I think it was healing for me as kind of healing an inner kid. And also coming back and saying hi to her again. And so when someone said it's what it's like to be someone's child, I'm like, yeah, I'm the child. 

And I'm healing myself. I'm using death to celebrate myself. I'm using death to celebrate the living, which is me, which is also a phrase I like to use about the show. Because the show is for the living, it's for you. It's for whoever's listening, right? 

Elaine Appleton Grant

I love that. Well, let's get into the episode that we're gonna pull the covers back on… 

Dana Black

Cool. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

…Which was your Christmas episode last year.

Unlike most of your episodes, which are interview episodes, it's you. It's a solo hosted show. It's called “Seeing gift cards that say To: Dana, From: Mom in her own handwriting, are breathtaking.” And let's listen to the opening. Hang in there. It's a little bit long, but honestly, I just love this for many reasons, which we'll get into.

Clip from I Swear On My Mother’s Grave

Hey, friend. Thanks for being here. Happy December. It's me, Dana, your friendly, sassy podcast host, just sitting here in front of the fire in my cozy robe, thinking about holidays past. And I thought we could have a little chat about it, just you and me. So why don't you go get into your coziest robe, grab a cup of cocoa or coffee or tea, and put on your warmest, fuzziest socks. And if you don't have any, I'm really sorry I didn't know that because I would have sent you a pair because my mother bought me, I don't know, maybe 25 pairs of large, warm, fuzzy socks during her lifetime. I think by the time I was 18, I had like 16 pairs of warm, fuzzy socks. You know, the big, large ones where you wear them all over the house and they get really dirty on the bottom and gross, but you can't stop wearing them.

And then sometimes you fall asleep in bed wearing them and they get stuck in the sheets and they fall off. Anyway, get into a pair of those and meet me back here. And let's talk about holidays, Christmases past. Let's talk about grief. Let's talk about my love of American Girl dolls. Let's do it. So meet me back here, put marshmallows on the top of that cocoa and...

Thanks for being here. Welcome to I Swear On My Mother's Grave, which I forgot to say at the top because I was really distracted by the fire. See you soon.

Elaine Appleton Grant

That is so gorgeous. 

Dana Black

Thank you. Wow, this is intense…

Elaine Appleton

I'm sorry. 

Dana Black

…To hear it back. It's amazing… 

Elaine Appleton Grant

It's just going to get more intense. 

Dana Black

…To hear it back. It's so cool. It's kind of like the antithesis, the thesis of hearing yourself back, right? Talking about your mom, getting to hear it back. Yeah, it's cool. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah. I was struck by that opening for so many reasons.

This is, it's not just so intimate. We say this about podcasts all the time, it's an intimate medium. 

Dana Black

Right. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

But it's intimate to the degree that we take advantage of that intimacy. And this is—perhaps—it's one of the passages that I've ever heard that is so deliberate about doing that. You are very specifically setting up a scene and saying, pull out your slippers, pull up a seat at the fire.

Let's just talk. 

Tell me, how did that idea come up? Let's just talk about how that happened. 

Dana Black

Well, in full transparency, my editor, her idea was like, OK, what if—I know it's cheesy—but we open with a fire? I was like, what, underneath me? She said, yeah, like a crackling. I go, that is hilarious and incredible and cheesy and amazing. All of the things, right? Yes, we're doing that.

She was like, I'm gonna send it to you, you can take it out.

And I loved it so much.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Who's your editor? 

Dana Black

Amanda Roscoe Mayo with…Cassiopeia Studios is her new company name. She's amazing. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

She's brilliant. She's brilliant. So you and your editor, I mean, there's the fire, but there's, the writing is, it's not just personal because we've heard that before. I've heard that before. But it's very between you and me. And so is the voicing, which is very hard to do for most people who aren't trained actors. What I hear is you wanted the listener to feel and behave in a certain way. Talk about the writing of that piece. 

Dana Black

Yeah. I wanted them, they say a lot when you're doing voiceover, too, you have to know who you're talking to. If you have dialogue, what is the face of the person you're seeing and talking to? So I try to imagine a friend.

It does feel very conspiratorial. So quick, quick, quick, quick, come here, come here, you know, I got something to tell you. And here's the deal, here's the deal, right? You grab your cocoa, I'll grab my gin and tonic, whatever it is, it makes me feel, I guess the writing, it has to feel secretive and to a friend and welcome them in and then literally say what feels good to me.

If something feels good to me, maybe it will feel good for someone else. Just like that whole, if you say your truth, but it has to be authentically me. I think I was in a robe when I recorded it. I wasn't in a robe when I wrote it, but I was definitely in a robe when I recorded it. I didn't have cocoa, but I try to say the things that—go do that! Because that's what I would want right now. Maybe if they're alone on Christmas, or maybe they are sad and struggling or lonely. I've got you. I've got you. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

OK, I've got another clip I'm going to play.

This is where you first introduce your mother as a character in this episode. 

Clip from I Swear On My Mother’s Grave

I would set up the doll surrounded by her furniture and miniature fancy finger cakes around our Christmas tree. I would eventually take it all upstairs after Christmas to be displayed in my bedroom and play with them alone because, well, you know, only child, remember? My mom loved these dolls. Honestly, she might have loved them more than I did.

The dolls seemed so sophisticated to her back then, so new and fancy, and each doll represented a different era and culture, with culture in quotes.

Elaine Appleton Grant

The reason I chose to play it is because it was the first introduction of your mother. There was so many things that came through for me, like she loved beauty and she must have been well educated or at least valued education. She valued education for you. It wasn't just the dolls. It was the culture. It was the history. 

Dana Black

Yeah. She liked nice things. She had good taste. Yeah, she loved reading. They loved buying me books. I asked for a box of books one year, and they just bought me a box of books. And I didn't read half of them. But you know what I mean. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

I’m always moved by very short scenes that communicate a lot. And so that was like 45 seconds long and look how much it communicated. 

So part of it is that a scene is such a shortcut. It brings us in, we learn so much about a character without ever having to say, my mother loved education and history and blah, blah, blah. Right? And so it's instructive. It's like a little movie.

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Elaine Appleton Grant

Partway through what became two conversations with Dana Black, I realized that she was giving me an entirely different perspective on audio storytelling than I'd had before. I still wanted to pull apart clips and talk through the writing and her process, but even more I wondered what it would be like to approach the craft the way an actor does instead of the way I do, the analytical, more reserved journalist.

What I didn't know is that she would teach me by turning the tables on me, by challenging me, and transforming me into the role of the guest, or maybe like a friend drinking cocoa around the campfire, the one she'll ask anything of. And I surprised myself. I found myself willing to tell her almost anything. Over the last 20 episodes of making Sound Judgment and exploring what it takes to keep listeners coming back, I've run up against this question.

As hosts, especially if we're journalists, how much of ourselves should we share or not? 

For me, it's a real time question. I am editing this episode right now as I voice this, and I am having to decide just how much of my own personal life and feelings to give to you and how much to leave on the cutting room floor. Do you struggle with this dilemma? I would love to hear from you if you do. Let me know where you fall. Are you an Elaine or a Dana?

Elaine Appleton Grant

People really respond to this sort of personal—I don't wanna say confessional, that's not fair— memoir. I'm sharing my life and my thoughts with you in a way that prompts you to think about your life and your thoughts. And as a journalist, I tend to be, you know, obviously fairly analytical or I wouldn't be doing this show, it's pretty analytical.

But I'm really curious about what would it be like to try to approach podcasting as an actor with a clean slate, none of all this journalism background or baggage. 

Dana Black

I could never be a journalist. That would be really, it'd be hard. I'd have a really hard time. Not that I always insert myself, but just that I'd wanna connect. I'd wanna share about myself to get that person to share more of their story. And I feel like that's what I'm also doing on the mic. 

Even when I'm with a stranger. I'm of course asking them questions, I'm listening to them, I'm letting them talk without judgment. But the only way to connect to someone I've never met, if I'm talking to a trans man that was a referral through a friend, I want him to trust me enough so I have to share, hey, I don't have the same story as you. My mom was also really complicated and I know what that's like, I don't know how you feel. We have different stories. But I wanna hear from you, I wanna understand you, but I have to share myself or else that person might not trust me.

Elaine Appleton Grant

It's beautiful. 

Dana Black

Thank you. Elaine, I wanted to say, though, when you listen to it, this memoir episode, what did it bring up for you then about your relationship with your mom? I know, look at me being sneaky, but what did it do or the loss of your mom or what did when you're listening to those vignettes, you said we yearn for them. So what did it do for you? 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Oh gosh, we really do. I, it's the reason I fell in love with public radio and wanted to move from print to radio to begin with, was that theater of the mind. 

And what we call in public radio, the driveway moment. 

Dana Black

What does that mean? What does that mean? 

Elaine Appleton Grant

See, yeah, oh, I love this. Thank you. You're like the straight person setting up a joke. 

Dana Black

Elaine, tell me more about that.

Elaine Appleton Grant

It was perfect, exactly. 

Dana Black

What do you mean? I've never heard of that. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

So the driveway moment is that you've created a story that's so compelling that the listener—this is back when we all commuted—is driving home or driving wherever, gets to their destination and has to sit in the driveway to hear the rest of the story before they go in. And the best compliment you could ever get from a listener is, oh my gosh, I had a driveway moment listening to your story. And...

Then I remember I went and interviewed for a reporting job and I asked the staff, you know, tell me about your lives at work. And my friend Amy, she became my friend and my colleague, said, well, we're creating theater of the mind. And I couldn't have put it better. And that is that sense of when I listened to your episode, I feel like I'm in your living room with this fake Christmas tree, with these beautiful ornaments, some of which are probably a little fussy. 

Dana Black

For sure. There's lace, yeah, porcelain, very delicate, that's gonna drop and break, you know what I mean? I'm gonna break it. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah, and then there's this dough ornament that's in the shape of, was it the creche? Was it the baby Jesus? That the cat eats?

Dana Black

At the bottom of the tree. Why put the food so low? And does it then trip up memories of trees in your past, Christmases in your past? 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yes. Yes, it does. So I have, at Christmas, and I always put it up, this old door hanger. It's sort of long and skinny and it has a bell at the end and it's got felt shapes of, you know, a Christmas bell and a leaf on the burlap.

And it hangs on your door. And the idea is that when the door opens, the bell rings. And it is falling apart. It was my mother's. And it's going to just fall apart entirely one day. And I have little cardboard elves and some angels that are also that old. And their heads are decapitated almost, but they're still there. And I put those up.

I don't have very much left of my mother. My mother died when I was 23. I didn't keep a lot. We weren't keepers, I guess, or they weren't. I didn't get passed down a lot of photos, but…

Elaine Appleton Grant

I had a complicated relationship with my mother, like a lot of people, like a lot of listeners to Dana's show and like Dana. Listen to this clip. 

Clip from I Swear On My Mother’s Grave

Mom and Nana were really easy to shop for, truly, until one year when my mom started asking for a body that wasn't broken. Her body. She really did ask me this. She emailed me and asked me to get her, for Christmas, a body that worked. And I, of course, responded with a sassy comment about how I'll see if I can find that at Target, which is not even that funny, and nor was the fact that she was getting sicker and sicker. I think it was around, I don't know, 2009…

Dana Black

This is like where, this is like, this is your life. This is your life, Dana, and we're gonna play it back for you. It's kind of like that show. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

How does that feel? 

Dana Black

I forgot I said that until right now. I was like, oh, right, I did that. But I also realized that's exactly what I do. Like I laughed in real time, listening to my own joke of telling something horrible and then just flipping it as quickly as I can. It doesn't mean I'm not feeling the pain. It's like a release valve. I'm constantly like, I'm going to really go hard on this thing. And then I'm going to hopefully release some tension for everyone listening and myself. And then I'm going to come back and I'm going to hopefully pull this rug out and you know, and just tell you the truth, right? Of how hard this is, and how sick she was. It's so interesting. It is who I am as a person. So I think reflecting back, I go, that is ultimately who I am. And so that's why I love talking in my own voice because it's exactly—I'm authentically myself. And that is the truth. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

And, and I think for journalists, it's very hard to do publicly. It can be hard to do privately. 

Dana Black

Why? Why? I don't mean the integrity part. That's a whole thing. I just mean—yeah, that's a whole other thing. I get that. But why, why do you think it is? 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Well, I think for a lot of reasons. I mean, I think some of it is just me. And I think that this is changing, actually. But I think that there has been a culture of, you are not part of the story. And keep yourself out of the story. And so then, you just train that over and over and over and over and over again. Then when it could be your own story, it feels wrong.

It feels wrong to share that personal, intimate stuff. And so, you know, this is wonderful to learn from you. Like my first instinct is to say, well, weren't you scared the first time you decided, I wanna speak in my own voice as opposed to reading, you know, playing a character. Because playing a character is an entirely different—it's much safer.

Dana Black

I mean, I was scared, but I was so…

I was more hungry for it than I even knew I was. Like I told you, I didn't know I was gonna start a podcast. I didn't know what was happening, but it was like, oh, oh my gosh, this is the medium I've been waiting for. 

This is it. There are many times in this process, and not just because scheduling with people is complicated, right? It's kind of a pain. You got all these people you gotta talk to. I have a lot of people who wanna come on my show. How wonderful, how amazing, and I love, we have to hear other people's stories. That's the whole point of our existence.

But I'm always threatening to do an entire episode with just myself on the mic. And I thought about it. I thought about coming back this third season and being like, it's just me solo the whole time. And I've had friends who were like, do it, do it. And other people go, nah, Dana, come on, you got it, come on, you gotta have, you gotta— But the point is, doing these solos allows me, and the closers that I do at the end of every episode allows me to scratch that itch. But what I'm saying is I could do a diary memoir. I mean, it's a lot of text, it's a lot of writing, it's a lot of processing.

But I'd really enjoy it. I think there's something freeing about it for me. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Well, I don't think that this is a medium, this solo sort of diary or memoir podcast that anybody can do. I think it's a very particular gift and skill or set of skills. I really do. And I think that you have those skills and that gift and you have a good story. 

I mean, in a sense, you have a good story. And in a sense, you have a story that everybody has, right? Because most of our relationships with a parent or a child are complicated. 

Dana Black

Yeah, yeah, there's always something. Even, like I told you, I'm gonna start the season with a mother daughter talking. And I know my closer is gonna be about how halfway through that conversation, I was just like, shut up. I'm glad you guys are best friends. I'm glad you—

That's what my brain is doing, right? My brain is going, oh, I'm so glad you guys are so close. And isn't that nice? And isn't it great your mom's alive? While I'm crying, while I'm so invested in this, while I'm obsessed with them. And we're talking about end of life. We're talking about raising kids. We're talking about their own deaths, with each other, a mother daughter. Like I'm facilitating that conversation. And it is incredible. And I was so jealous. I was so jealous, you know? And so that is real. And that is my closer probably. And that is the truth. That is…

And so that memoir piece of what I do in the closers and then do in the solos, I need those conversations for that reflection. And I need to bring it back to my own life. Even though sometimes I'm just like, oh God, I gotta set up another interview with—I mean, I'm being flippant, but you get it. It's, I don't know, I really enjoy just talking it out and writing it out and writing it out. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

What I love about what you've done with this episode is that you've painted this picture of your mother as a parent in all her sort of normal, you know, loves, identity, who she was, beliefs, normal quirks. Like, you know, a love for lacy fragile Christmas decor. And then you sort of sneak in, wait a minute, she is not well. And she's not well in ways that are really fraught.

And we never actually learn much about that. Tell me about how you thought about writing that or maybe you didn't think about it because you did say you just sat down to write it and it just came out of you. 

Dana Black

I think by then, in truth, I probably felt, because if you start at the top of my show, if you start at season one and you go all the way to the end of season two, which is what that episode pretty much is, you've heard it all, you know her story. My story with my mom slowly unravels throughout both seasons, right? So I think maybe subconsciously I was like, they know, they got it. And if they're coming for the first time…

I guess it's just, I'm just sharing a little nugget, you know, and you might have to go find other nuggets if you want more of this story. Now, and here's where I'm at today with my grief, and here's where I'm at today with my joy, and here's where I'm at with my nostalgia, and let me take you back to a time. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah. Well, I think the mark of a successful…I almost don't wanna say episode because it could be a short story. Everything you did could be in a different medium and it would still work. Because the quality of the writing and the quality of the delivery is whole in and of itself. And so it's not like I felt like, wait a minute, what happened? What is she talking about? I didn't feel that way at all. What I felt was that way too often, people who are less experienced, perhaps, they might write about someone, say, with addiction or a mental health issue or just an illness or whatever in a very one-dimensional way. Here's this issue, we're gonna hit you over the head with the issue and we're gonna tell you about the issue. And that's not at all what you did. It's more like you sculpted a recreation of your mother through your eyes in a whole way. 

Years and years and years ago, I had cancer.

And I'm fine. All of a sudden, there were some people who didn't know how to talk to me. And I was like, wait a minute, I am not a different person. 

Dana Black

I hear that happens. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

I could have had the flu. And if I had the flu, nobody would have struggled to talk to me as Elaine. But all of a sudden, people struggled to talk to me because I was the cancer patient. And then I had surgery and I was fine and I've never had a problem since. It's not a big part of my life. But it's the same thing.

And so I think it takes skill and awareness and heart to do what you did. 

Dana Black

Thank you. 

I mean, I think it's the same, I hear that it's the same kind of grief. I think a lot of people don't know what to say to people who are sick, right? They're worried they're gonna say the wrong thing. Hey, I've probably done that. I've probably, definitely, been like, shoot, I'm gonna say the wrong thing to this person who's got ALS or cancer and just like with griefers. They’re like, just ignore them. Don't ask them about their loved one. Don't— They're worried they're gonna mess up. So they don't say anything at all, or they back away, right?

I think when you say stuff like you didn't talk about, you chose not to do the issue, you talked about the person, I think it's because I'm not an expert. And so I'm constantly reminding myself that and reminding my editor and just my whole vision statement is that I barely even have on experts on my show. Like this season I'm gonna talk to an estate lawyer and I might bring on someone who does grief work. And that's awesome, but that's not my show. And that's okay.

Elaine Appleton Grant

It's not your show. 

Dana Black

It's not my show. I'm regular people or maybe a couple celebrities when I get them, right? But it's regular civilians, amazing artists, people I love, people who knew my mom. I've interviewed people who knew my mom. And so that isn't my show. So I'm never coming on being the authority, and I have to be careful, of course. I have to be trauma-informed enough to not throw around disrespectful terms about addiction. And I'm learning how to talk more about my mom's addiction.

Because my mom wasn't an addict, she dealt with addiction, right? So there's certain terms that I'm also working through and learning. But all I'm trying to do is just tell my story and my perspective. I'm never giving advice. I mean, I connect and I have empathy and I have thoughts. I go, hey, maybe you try this with your mom. But I'm never the authority. So I'm only coming as an empathetic daughter and a storyteller and a voiceover sag after artist. You know, I'm no schlub of performance, but it's not a performance. It's really a reflective memoir conversation show. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

All right, I have to ask you, because when I first set out to create the show and this question, what are the universal skills that it takes to become a beloved host? Okay, that's the question that I'm trying to answer with every episode across multiple genres and different kinds of people. And there are certain skills that go across everybody that make listeners connect. 

Dana Black

What are some of the threads you're seeing? 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Well, the one that I wanted to ask you about—but I will answer that. 

So I spoke with Glynn Washington, who's the host of Snap Judgment, which is a huge show. He's really widely considered one of the best storytellers of our time on the mic. And he says, you know, it's authentic, but it's performative. You know, the term hostiness, which was coined by PRX many years ago, I didn't even know that's what I was doing. And then somebody told me, Oh, you're looking for hostiness. And he said, Yeah, I've got hostiness. And it's authentic, but it’s also performative. 

How do you see that? I mean, you are a performer, like you said, I'm a voiceover artist and actor, and yet here you are using your own voice. Where do you stand on this? 

Dana Black

Yeah, I know that's hard, because you don't wanna say that you're performing your grief, talking about your mom, making story. You don't wanna make it seem like it's false. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Right, and he wasn't saying that it was false. 

Dana Black

Right, but the word performative has a connotation. I know. That is hard. That's really, I don't know if—oh man. If it's your most stripped down version of yourself and also your most kind of activated part of yourself? It's both for me sometimes. It's like, this is, if I'm writing especially, if I'm writing it out and I'm doing it in my voice and my tone and my humor and my, the way I wanna speak, it's like the most stripped-down, kind of the core of who I am, and then dialed up to a 10, right? Of hit this beat, hit this moment, but also, yeah, I don't ever wanna like go back and do it multiple times. 

And yet you want it to be, I wanna hit that perfectly when I'm doing solo episodes. But in a conversation, I'm still learning how to be a good host. I mean, I know how to be a good conversationalist. But guiding someone and really staying present and having questions prepared or just going with the flow of the conversation, which sometimes happens too. I have stuff prepared and I never get to them. That's still a learning journey for me, for sure. I've never done this before. But I just lead with disarming people, listening without judgment, being curious, don't talk over them, share yourself and open up, they'll open up back to you and do your research. I'm learning about how to be a good host, and I'm listening to other people and trying my best, so that's why I'm like, tell me the throughlines, and listening to your podcast has helped me also learn what makes a good host, so. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Well, thank you, and I am really using poetic license when I say what makes a beloved host, because in truth, it should say, what are the skills that audio makers use to connect with listeners and have listeners be, I've got to hear this show. And the show is represented by the person or the people on the mic, but it's the team. It's your editors saying to you, what if we had you around a fire? It's the writer. In your case, it's you, because you're an excellent writer. So it's really the, in my lingo, it's the producers. And it's the sound designers and the editors. It's really, what does it take to make this show that people remember? And ultimately, I saw somewhere, a friend of mine posted recently, they might come for the topic, but they stay for you. 

Dana Black

Always. Somebody, I mean, in full transparency, someone said, yeah, that's cool that you got Peter Sagal. That's cool, sure. And it is, it's cool. We're listening to you, Dana Black, interview Peter Sagal.

We're not, we can go find him on all their shows. We can listen to NPR's Wait Wait… Don't Tell Me!, right? But we're coming to listen to you talk to him. And if I got Anderson Cooper, or if I get Tabitha Brown, or if I—of course they wanna hear those famous people, but they're like, oh my God, Dana, Dana, this host that we love, this show that we love, Dana's gonna talk to Tabitha Brown? What is she gonna say? How is she gonna say it? How are they gonna connect? And that moved me so deeply to be like, that's so cool, right? That people are like, we wanna hear you interview that person and we're coming for you and we trust you so that you can do anything you want. Mess with the medium, switch it up, and if we trust you, we'll stay with you forever. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Okay, so what do you think? Now you've done this for two seasons and you're about to start your third, Storytellers, on Mother's Day. Cue it up. Follow I Swear On My Mother's Grave because Dana's amazing. 

What is it in your mind that has made listeners say to you, Dana, we love you, we trust you, you can do anything you want and we'll come back for you? What are the ingredients? That's what everybody's looking for. 

Dana Black

I think people come for the great guests. I have incredible storytellers and for the curiosity and for, I'm just gonna say the thing that I think they're waiting. I had a friend say, I listen sometimes to the entire episode and I'm always clocking, what is her closer going to be? What's Dana—what is the thing that Dana's pulling out through this whole conversation? And sometimes I can guess it. And sometimes you just like totally flip me for, because your closer is so reflective and so personal. And I never know where you're going. But I love going, okay, this is an episode about adoption, what's going to happen, she's going to share a story and she's going to play audio from someone's mom who's passed. Where's Dana going with this, right?

And it isn't just about me. I'm just talking about that memoir piece. And so I think as a host, they're like, why did Dana pick this person? Why are we listening to them? And also, how will this reflect back on my own journey with my living mom, with my children? How can I be a better parent? What's it like? How will people talk about me when I go? What is legacy, right? So I think there's a lot of that and why people tune in. And then I'm gonna talk about my vibrator and weird stuff like that.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Well, I think you're saying some really, really important things. And one of them is that thing that somebody said to you, Dana, I want to know how you close it because you always surprise me. So something that comes from This American Life about a simple way to look at a story is action, stakes, reflection. So you're in the action, like you start three minutes in or seven minutes in, you want to be in the action. Huh? What's going on? 

Set the stakes. How high were the stakes? The stakes were very high in this episode where you're going home for Christmas and your mother is in bed and she can't come get you. Well, why is she in bed, right? There's a lot of emotion there. But we're here in the end for the reflection because human beings seek meaning. We want meaning, we want to make meaning out of our own stories and our own lives. And that's what I'm, part of what I'm taking away from what you said is that by making meaning out of your story that you're sharing or out of your feelings about the person you just did this interview with…

Then you're helping us as listeners make meaning out of the complicated parts of our lives and the beautiful parts of our lives. And you've mentioned trust and you've mentioned getting the trust of your listeners and the trust of your guests. So one of the throughlines that I have found in this quest that I'm on is psychological safety. Creating psychological safety with your listeners, with your guests, if you have guests, with your sources, and for people who work in teams with your team members.

Dana Black

Yeah, well, and you didn't say psychological safety for me. I mean, I have to feel safe too. And yeah, making sure that they all feel seen and heard. And, like I said, no judgment. That's all people want. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

So I'm going to just give you two Lightning Round Questions. How has hosting I Swear On My Mother's Grave changed you in ways that you didn't expect?

Dana Black

That's a Lightning Round? Oh my gosh. 

Like I said, I wanted to talk in my voice. It's given me the power to do so. It's let me do so. It’s let me connect with a whole new community of people. I never would have thought that these—I have friends on the internet now that I've never met. And I've learned to forgive myself and my mother. And I can't believe that happened. 

I used to never wanna talk about my mom, even in therapy. My therapist would say, we've got five more minutes left. You've complained about the play you're in and the guy you're dating. Let me know when you're ready to talk about your mom who's bedridden, you know what I mean? Like she'd joke, is it now? Because you got four minutes left. So I would avoid it at all costs. 

And I also have learned that I actually, I love writing and I like storytelling. Maybe I'll write a book, who knows? Who knows, Elaine? But that I'm an artist who has infinite capacity. And that is really what I learned. I'm not just an actor on a stage. Hey, maybe let's do something else. So that's been really freeing. And then I am not alone in my complicated maternal grief. There are thousands of people with way more complicated stories. We all are sharing pain. And by talking it out, it just kind of feels good some days.

And laughing about it. And laughing about it. You got to.

Elaine Appleton Grant

That was Dana Black, host and producer of I Swear On My Mother's Grave. Season 3 launches on Mother's Day and I can't wait. For the second year in a row, Dana is hosting a Mother's Grave retreat. It's in June on a gorgeous lakeside cottage resort and there might be one or two spots left. The link’s in our show notes. 

At the end of every episode, I give you a few of the many takeaways from these conversations. Here are today's.

1. We say podcasts are an intimate medium, but that's not really the case. What's true is that podcasts have the capacity to feel intimate, but it takes a clear sound vision to make that happen. Dana has it. She thinks carefully about how she wants her listeners to feel. Come here, come here, come here, she whispers. She talks to them directly as if they're right there. Sit by the fire with me. Grab a cup of cocoa. Put on warm socks. She wants them to feel they're in on a secret, and so she writes voices and sound designs with that goal in mind. 
2. But there's no intimacy without trust. The only way to gain the trust of someone I've never met, Dana says, is I have to share myself so that they will share themselves. 
3. There is so much power in scenes. A 45-second scene, in Dana's case, about getting American Girl dolls for Christmas. We get a distillation of who her mother was. Scenes done well are beautiful shortcuts to both facts and feelings, and inevitably have listeners conjuring up memories from their own lives.
4. One reason listeners are hooked on Mother's Grave: at the end of every episode, Dana reflects on what that conversation meant to her, often in surprising ways. Listeners can't wait to find out what she'll say.

That's all for today. Thanks for being with me. If you liked this episode, listen to Episode 5: Finding Your Voice with Shelter in Place Host Laura Joyce Davis. That link’s in our show notes. Please follow us on your listening app. Our goal is to help you make great creative choices every day. And you can help us do that! Take a minute, give us a five star rating and a short review on Apple Podcasts. It helps us grow our show and we're grateful. 

Next on Sound Judgment, Sam Mullins, the host and producer of last year's best podcast of the year, Ambies award winning show, Wild Boys. 

Sound Judgment is produced by me, Elaine Appleton Grant. Sound designed by Andrew Parrella. Our gorgeous cover art is by Sarah Edgell. Podcast management by Tina Bassir. 

See you soon.

Dana Black

And I did have a driveway moment, I was gonna say. I did have somebody text me after the Billy and Evelyn, my sibling episode, and said I stopped at the driveway at my house before I went in. I had to finish it. So I guess I got one. I got one, Elaine. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yay, you should put that on your wall. A driveway moment. Yeah.