How to Capture an Audience with Near Death’s Nikki Boyer

This transcript was auto-generated from an audio recording. Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

I think we can all agree that some hosts are better than others. But then there is the rare host—the rare person, really—who’s magnetic. You want to listen, or maybe to watch, but you don’t really know why. You’re caught. 

Nikki Boyer is exhibit A. You may know her name because she created the Wondery hit Dying for Sex in 2021. Dying for Sex chronicled the way Nikki’s best friend Molly contended with her terminal breast cancer…by having as many sexual adventures as possible before dying. Millions of people listened, and it won an award for podcast of the year. 

Or maybe you know Nikki because before she became an avid podcaster, she was a TV personality who appeared on almost every major TV talk show. She won three Emmy awards. And she was famously photobombed at the Grammy’s by Beyonce. 

But none of that explains the magnetism. That comes from something else, something we can all do. Something we can all bring to our podcasts, in fact. It’s the singular focus she offers the person standing in front of her. Nikki makes you feel not just like the only person in the room, but like the person she’d rather spend time with than anyone else. It’s presence—and it stems from a deep curiosity, and fearlessness. Frankly, Nikki wants all the answers.

Clip of Nikki Boyer

How does that feel? And is that what you wanted? And are you disappointed I really like kind of getting the shovel and digging a little and it doesn't make everybody comfortable and that's okay. Some people were like, Whoa, this is too much.

Elaine Appleton Grant

But here’s the thing: Nikki Boyer had to learn how to let go. How to give up dreams of being the center of attention and swap them for dreams of giving attention. And she had to learn how to be honest and blunt herself…even when it would have been easier not to. Storytellers, this episode includes a discussion of suicide. It talks about death with dignity and the dying process. Please listen with care.
 

This is Sound Judgment, where we investigate just what it takes to become a beloved audio storyteller by pulling apart one episode at a time, together. I’m Elaine Appleton Grant.

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Elaine Appleton Grant: If you’ve been listening to Sound Judgment for a little while, you know I’m on a quest to learn the universal skills and qualities of today’s best storytellers. I’ve learned a ton from this project—and from my 20 years as a journalist in public radio and podcasting. If you ever think, gosh, I wish I had a coach to help me with my podcast strategy, storytelling chops or on-air skills, or just to bounce ideas off of—but you don’t want to make a big commitment—I’m now offering one-time coaching sessions! My last client said it was exactly what she needed. It’s easy to sign up for just one coaching session, at podcast allies dot com.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Nikki Boyer, welcome to Sound Judgment. I really can't tell you how thrilled I am to have you here.

Nikki Boyer

Oh my gosh, the feeling is so mutual. So thank you for having me. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Nikki, I watched a news clip of you talking about your new show Near Death on a local news station. You said, I love having uncomfortable conversations. Sort of the same way I might say, I love talking about—I don't know, the book that I'm reading. That seems to sum up at least the last three or four years of your life, and I thought it was an interesting place to start. Is this desire, this love of uncomfortable conversations, a core piece of who you are?

Nikki Boyer

Oh, this is like therapy. I think so, Elaine. I do. Because now that I—when I'm looking back at how I was wired and the kind of kid that I was, I didn't like the phony, phony, fake, fake. I didn't like that. I really liked the real stuff. I liked going in and asking the uncomfortable questions. And sometimes that was too much for people. So I think in my youth, it didn't serve me. But as I've gotten older, people tend to like that and gravitate towards that. So it is kind of the core of who I am. It's definitely become the core of my career in the last three to four years, and it's the most creative I've ever felt, the happiest I've ever felt. So I think it's working. We’ll see.

Elaine Appleton Grant 

That's so interesting. I was gonna save this question for the very end, but I'm gonna ask it now. You just started, recently, your new production company, Dying For Media. And it appears to be that it's all about uncomfortable topics: sex, death… Near Death is the first podcast out of it. But you've got a whole slate planned. And I found it fascinating that you say you're designing it as an audio-first company. You're a video person.

Nikki Boyer

I am.

Elaine Appleton Grant

So why did you choose to start an audio-first company?

Nikki Boyer 

That's such a great question. I think it was a happy accident. I think I came to LA and I spent so much time on camera, right? Using my face, my body, my persona, all of that, to—you know, do artistic work. Also sell products. Also get notoriety, and—you know, all that shit you do.

And there was just—I got my start in radio. I took radio classes in college, I worked as an intern at a radio station. I worked back in radio when you cut the tape, Elaine, like cut—physically cut the tape and put it together, that’s what I was doing. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Really! You were twelve, right?

Nikki Boyer

Oh, I love you. Yes, I was twelve. So it's funny that I landed back in audio. But I think ultimately my goal and my plan is to always take everything to film and to television. But something that I've learned along the way with audio is that there is something so beautifully intimate and vulnerable about listening to something with just your ears. It's just so personal. So I love it, I love doing audio first. I think people feel a little safer, or a little more open to share when they know there's not lights and cameras around. And then they kind of gain their confidence. And then they're ready to maybe share in a little more of visual platform. 

Elaine Appleton Grant 

But it sounds like you're not ruling out taking some of this material to video or film.

Nikki Boyer 

I would love to. At the end of the day creating a television show that moves and changes people? That is the ultimate goal. But like I always say, with Dying for Sex, if you really want the real story, then go to the audio. Because it's actually me and Molly. TV shows change, and they morph, and they grow, and they become something in and of themselves. But I do think there's something so sacred and truthful about the audio. If it's docu-series. I think you get a real sort of gritty vibe of who the people are, just from their voices.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Well, gritty is a good word for dying for sex. And Dying for Sex, shared your best friend Molly's sex life in a way that is very raw. And that was a huge hit. So Molly, for those who have not listened yet, Molly is grappling with breast cancer. She's also dealing with trauma from her past. And you explore big themes that affect us all, like healing, forgiveness, and what we do with the time we have left. So I want to play a clip from season one, episode three. And I just want to preface this by saying this is one of the very tame mist of Molly's sex stories.

Clip from Dying for Sex

Molly: I think we watched a movie or something. I think we did something very mundane. And we talked, and we got along really well, and…

Nikki Boyer: Was he just eyeing your feet the whole time?

Molly: No! See, that’s the thing, he wasn’t. No, we actually got along, we had some intellectual conversation. And then—and then the shoes came off.

Nikki Boyer: Literally, right?

Molly: Literally. Yeah, so you know, his thing was, he liked to be walked on, and he also liked to suck toes and sort of watch me as he was worshiping my feet. He liked the idea of looking up at a beautiful woman and worshiping her feet at the same time. So I kind of learned very quickly how to deal with his foot fetish.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Millions of people downloaded Dying for Sex. What kind of reaction did you get from people who were like, wow, I didn't know I needed to hear something so raw. What kind of reaction?

Nikki Boyer

The reaction was unbelievable and very healing. Because by that time, spoiler alert, Molly had already gone. She had passed away. So in a way those comments kind of kept her alive in me. And hearing people say things like, oh my god, I fell in love with her, and—oh my god, she said this today, and it made me think about—to know that she was still sort of alive in people's lives, that felt really, really beautiful to me. I got loving messages, people saying anything from, I haven't gotten my first breast exam, and I'm going tomorrow because of this podcast. Or, I haven't spoken to my mother in 10 years and watching Molly sort of figure out her relationship with her mom—this truck driver, he's like, I pulled over and I called my mom. Haven't talked to her in 10 years. And I talked to her today like no time had gone by.

And then other messages—like this has changed my life, my perspective on my relationship. I'm not as happy as I thought I was, or I need more sex, or I may not be searching for sex, but I'm searching for something and Molly's given me the courage—and so I just feel like the reactions were really very surprising and very loving.

Elaine Appleton Grant

And it does tell us something about—something about the need to hear these conversations. I bet a lot of people never hear, in their normal lives, any deep conversations at all.

Nikki Boyer

Right. Because we kind of coast through life. You know, how's the weather? How are the kids? Where’d you go on vacation? Cool, cool. See you next Friday. Right?

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah.

Nikki Boyer

How often do you walk into the room? And someone says, you know, are you really fulfilled with your relationship? And then the wheels start turning and then two days later: So, I wanted to tell you something that I was thinking about. So—and not that we need to put people's feet to the fire, to be like, are you happy? Is your relationship good? But asking the deeper questions, of what did that mean to you? And how does that feel? And is that what you wanted? And are you disappointed? I really like getting the shovel and digging a little. And it doesn't make everybody comfortable, and that's okay. Some people are like, Whoa, this is too much.

Elaine Appleton Grant 

Well, I gotta say, when I heard the first episode of Dying for Sex—

Nikki Boyer

What did you think?

Elaine Appleton Grant

Well, I was in the car with my husband. Listening to the first episode of Dying for Sex, which is very racy. And I was a little embarrassed, you know? And he was listening very intently and having no expression on his face at all.

Nikki Boyer

Right. Yeah, no, I am curious. Like, why were you—what was embarrassing about it for you?

Elaine Appleton Grant 

Oh my gosh.

Nikki Boyer

I mean, it’s pretty kinky. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah. Well, it is it is. But you're also reminded me of another guest that I had last season. Dana Black, who has a great podcast you would like. It's called I Swear on My Mother's Grave. And she is a memoirist, and also an actor, like you. And she did the same thing. She's like, Oh, but Elaine, I need to ask you questions. I’m like, whoa, hold on. So we're gonna move on from that one. Just because I have a lot of questions to ask. We could talk about it later.

Elaine Appleton Grant 

You've said that you were motivated to start Near Death, which features Reverend Peggy, a chaplain who was with your friend Molly in her last days, because of the experience of going through Molly's death with Peggy. Speak to what it's like to have a person as your animating force. So in the case of Dying for Sex, Molly.

Nikki Boyer

Yeah. You know, it's funny. When she was dying, she said to me, I hope that somehow this project that we're working on, from her deathbed, somehow makes your life and your purpose very clear, and so much better. I think she knew before she died that she was kind of giving me this gift and this purpose, because she'd watched me flail. I was a host, I was an actress. I was a voiceover. I was the theater. I did—I was like—somebody, somebody pay attention to me, right? A little desperate. And as I got older, I think I tried to shed some of that, but it was still in me. And then when I got really clear about what kind of stories I wanted to tell, I quit the business and I was done. And then Molly got sick. And we started working on this project together and I haven't stopped. 

She is my north star. I ask her for help, I meditate and give her questions and try to feel what she would say…ugh, I could get emotional just thinking about it. And I feel like she's—she gets to work through me. And so it feels really great to have a person, a human that you deeply loved, to be your driving force. And I feel like she will be until I'm gone. Because there's so much integrity and so much clarity in it. And I'm not going just, like me, like me! I'm going, I have a story to tell. And I have this person’s story to tell, and I can't wait to share it with you. So it feels better than waiting for the spotlight to land on me.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Right? I have this person's story to tell. And so that's a gift to that person, but also to the listeners who it's meant for.

So you chose the episode Death Party in Near Death as the one that you wanted to pull apart with me. So Death Party largely focuses on the experience that Reverend Peggy had helping this woman Sheila die. And we're gonna get to Sheila's very powerful story soon. But first, you and Peggy made an intentional choice. You start the episode by greeting each other, and you're chatting, and you don't formally introduce the show or yourselves for a full five minutes. I want to play some tape for you of the beginning of the episode. You start almost immediately by telling Peggy your story about being trained as a suicide hotline counselor. And you say you loved it, but you were terrible at it.

Clip from Near Death

Nikki Boyer: it's a crisis line. So when people would call, you'd have a certain amount of time where you'd have to find out whether or not they were really in need and they were high risk. And so if they were just having suicidal ideation or sort of just having a really, really hard day and contemplating things, they didn't fall in that crisis. Crisis means you're going to kill yourself today. 

Reverend Peggy: Right.

Nikki Boyer: So I would be on these calls with people for 20, 30, 35 minutes, and my supervisor, who I loved by the way, she told me over and over again that I spent way too much time on the calls. I remember there was this one gentleman who called me from a pay phone at a—oh God, every time I think about him, I cry. He called me from a pay phone at a gas station. And he said, I am homeless, and I don't have anywhere to go, and I don't want to live anymore. And right now, I'm currently living in the ditch that I've dug out between the building and the bathroom area. And I'm sleeping there at night. And I don't have anywhere to go, and I don't have anyone to call, and I don't know what to do. And I just thought, oh my God, and I said, how likely are you to do this tonight? And he said, I don't know, and I'm not sure, but I'm thinking about it. 

Reverend Peggy: Yeah. 

Nikki Boyer: So that's not a high risk caller. So I could not go, I spent the next 30 minutes talking to him, but what I learned is that he had had a really good life and he had family and things took a downward spiral and he didn't know what to do and he didn't know where to go. And I stayed on the phone with him forever. Like I just couldn't picturing him getting off the phone with me and like going to his little like dug out ditch where he was going to stay that night. Just broke my heart. So I stayed on the phone and I got in big trouble.

Elaine Appleton Grant 

It's an interesting story in and of itself. But it has almost nothing to do with the bulk of the episode about Sheila, and about death with dignity. And it's a choice, to say, essentially, we're starting this show as a chat show. And I'm wondering if you can tell me the story of how you decided, Hey, we should do a straight interview show, and we should chat with each other like this. Because it's very different than Dying for Sex, which is a very formally constructed, highly sound designed, narrated interview show.

Nikki Boyer

Well, I think the one thing we wanted to do, first and foremost, was make this a safe place where people felt like they could come to listen to stories and not just be moved and cry and think about death, but where we could also talk about uncomfortable things. And the reason that Peggy and I decided for that episode to talk about the suicide prevention center is that, you know, for a long time, the Death with Dignity Act was called assisted suicide. And so we wanted to ease people into the idea of taking your own life and having those conversations. It’s not very often that people say, let's talk about suicide. So that was our very chatty way of saying, let's ease into the idea of taking your own life. What does that mean? How do I connect with that? I connect with it because I worked there. I've had a few family members die by suicide. There was a connection. We always try to be very mindful of how we weave it together. I don't know, I took some risks. And you know, we're still, in a way, kind of still figuring it out. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

I'm not criticizing it. I'm really asking a question, because you've got very different shows back to back. And in fact, Near Death was inspired by Dying for Sex. And—in a couple of very significant ways, you know, Molly, and Peggy, and… And yet you've chosen entirely different formats for them. And it's one of the first choices that people need to make, right? When they say, I'm going to do a podcast. Well, what's it going to look like and feel like? What kind of container are you putting that in?

Nikki Boyer

I don't think we knew when we started. I just knew I didn't want the heaviest of lift. Because it's a weekly show, and Dying for Sex is a docu-series. It's limited. And sustaining that, I knew that I wanted it to be bookended. I wanted everybody to understand that we were just two gals hanging out, talking about stuff. And then there's these really profound moments. And then we have a martini at the end. And more than anything, I wanted people to really capture the feeling of what it is like to have a chaplain as a friend.

And also bringing these amazing stories about death to hopefully make your life a little better. And maybe shift your perspective a little bit about gratitude, illness. All the stories that we tell, we’re not heavy-handing them to you, like, this is how you should feel. We're just sharing the death stories. And I think it's easy to stereotype people when you have an idea of who they are, what they mean to your life. And then you stop and go, Oh, everyone's dying. None of us are getting out of here alive. But when you hear someone's death story, I think it really humanizes them, and you go, oh he wasn’t just a this—he was also a this and a this and a dad… 

Elaine Appleton Grant

I am very interested in the stories that we elicit as interviewers, and the moments that we as the editors and producers decide to keep in and leave out. And I was taken by this little moment. It's about 20 minutes in. So it's about Sheila. She's a very powerful woman. She's middle-aged, she's an executive, every hair in place. She's got it all together. And she seems sort of formidable. But she gets ALS. And it's a degenerative terminal disease and eventually you don't have control over your muscles. You can't move easily, you can't speak easily, et cetera. It's a terrible disease. And so Sheila makes a very surprising decision. And it's kind of a small moment. And I'd like you to take a listen to this.

Clip from Near Death

Reverend Peggy: She would have moments where she's like, oh my God, this is real. What do I gotta do? What do I gotta do? And she, in her faith tradition, she grew up in a non-practicing home, right? And just cultural Jews. And she said, I never got bat mitzvahed. And I said, well, why don't you do it now? And she's like, do you think? 

Nikki Boyer: Oh, God. 

Peggy: And I’m like, do it now if you want it. You know, I said, I can—I know some rabbis. I got some peeps on my phone. I got connections. Exactly. I got like five rabbis’ numbers in my phone. I swear I do. And she's like, I wanna do it. And she was—oh, no, do I have to learn Hebrew? And I'm like, you're going to get a pass. I promise you, because that would take forever. Right. She wanted to get it done. Yeah. 

Nikki Boyer: So she got bat mitzvahed. 

Peggy: She did. She got bat mitzvahed.

Nikki Boyer: Oh, Sheila. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

For people who might not know, but mitzvahs usually happen at the age of 13. What was interesting about this, and I wondered whether you talked about this with Peggy, is—I wondered about the role of rituals when people are dying. That—one of your stated goals, I think, with Near Death, is to make people more comfortable talking about death. Make it less scary. Normalize it. And there's that sense of urgency: I don't have much time left, what am I going to do with it? I better do the things that I kind of always meant to do, or maybe didn't even realize I should have done. And I wondered if this is a common thing, that people, when they know they're going to die, add ritual to their lives, do rituals that normally are reserved for children, but are meaningful? I don't know…

Nikki Boyer

I think I looked at it as…one was, what are all the things that maybe I wished I would have, should have, coulda done. And can I do them now? It's never too late. And here I have a chaplain who's—you know, has access. Why not? Why not do it?

I also think there was a fear—Sheila had mentioned that she had a fear. Is what she's doing—and she chose to die with the Death with Dignity Act—is she okay? Is she right with God? Is she right religiously? Is she going to go to hell? I think she had those questions for Peggy. So maybe that bat mitzvah was one more nod to like, Hey, God, I'm doing good here.

Elaine Appleton Grant

I have the certificate. Let me in.

Nikki Boyer

Exactly. I can't even imagine the thoughts and questions that go on in someone's head. But I imagine I probably would go, too, Bring me the crystals! I'm not into Jesus, really, but bring me the crucifixes. Where's the little yarmulke? I will do anything I need to do just to feel good.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Exactly. That's where my mind went, is like, what would you do? Or would you—Molly wrote her memoir in the last two months of her life and I—in one episode, you said she tended to do everything at the last minute, which was kind of funny, but true, too

Nikki Boyer

Peggy's married a lot of people on their deathbeds. A lot of people say, I want to die knowing I was married to you. And what made them wait that long? And now they're dying…I think we wait sometimes to give ourselves permission to do the things that maybe scare us a little? I don’t know.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Yeah. And maybe this will help some people not wait.

So, I want to go back to Sheila's story. And here's a clip from about 30 minutes in. And Sheila has taken a turn for the worse.

Clip from Near Death

Reverend Peggy: She came in one day, I remember, I'll never forget. She came in one day and she always had to see me. She's like, SEND PEGGY IN HERE. And I came in and she was as coiffed as she could be, but she was not the same coiff. So her hair wasn't really as fantastic. Like it was fantastic, it just wasn't styled just so. And she had a big schmutz on her shirt. 

Nikki Boyer: Just so not Sheila. 

Reverend Peggy: It's not Sheila. 

Nikki Boyer: I've only known her for a short time, but I’m like, that’s not Sheila. Okay.

Reverend Peggy: She had a schmutz. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

So you know what's coming. There's nothing heavy-handed. She doesn't say, she's really sick now. And so as a listener, it's such a good lead-in to, oh, now I see what's happening, right? And you're talking about someone who can't participate in the conversation because she has died. And Peggy does a wonderful job of pulling Sheila into this conversation anyway, of making her a character, which—Near Death is all about people who are no longer with us. Do you or did you wrestle at all with how to make listeners feel like these people are still present and they're still real, whole, vivid human beings?

Nikki Boyer

In the very beginning, we knew that we had to handle these people with such love and care, because we're sharing their stories. And Peggy has just such a beautiful way of honoring them. I think this is where her experience being a chaplain really comes in—where she really meets people where they are, understands how to honor them and say enough about them to where we get who they are, but don't compromise their anonymity. And also, I think we're both just bleeding hearts. I mean, I—all the time in my life, I go oh, Sheila, or oh, Sheila, and this makes me think of Sheila. I've never met Sheila. I don't know Sheila. But I know her. Sheila is in my heart. And I think after you listen, you're like, oh, it's Sheila. Marilyn, from the angels episode! These people are in me now, because I think Peggy does such a beautiful job at peeling the onion of these people. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

I think the thing about particularly that description of the change in Sheila's physical appearance, and the fact that there's a stain on her shirt… It's so visceral. It sounds like Peggy probably does this intuitively. She doesn't even think about how she's describing people. But it's not intuitive to everybody. And so storytellers listening to this episode, I kind of want you to take that away. It's the visceral nature. It's the sensory details. It's the subtle changes that tell us so much, and make somebody feel like you could reach out and touch them, and they're in the room and they matter to you. 

I want to bring you now to close to the end of the episode. So at this point, Sheila has gotten very ill and she tells Peggy that she is ready to die.

Clip from Near Death

Reverend Peggy: And she was like, I'm really ready. And I love you. And I said, I love you. I said, I really love you. And I remember I kind of petted her hair, you know, and I was like, I'll never forget you. She pulled me in for kind of a sloppy smooch. And then she said, pray me home, honey. I said, it'd be my honor, it'd be my privilege to pray you home, Sheila. And she said, no Jesus. And I laughed. I laughed so hard. And I was like, no Jesus, Sheila. No Jesus.

Elaine Appleton Grant

This really felt like the emotional heart or the climax of the conversation with Reverend Peggy, because of the way it tied Sheila's story together—there was a climax and a conclusion—and because the depth of your emotion. You're laughing, you're crying. Tell me about this moment. 

Nikki Boyer

What stands out the most is what stood out with Molly, is that here is this woman who is making a decision, and created this beautiful relationship with a chaplain. Even though she's Jewish, she has a Christian chaplain guiding her in her death journey. To me, it's how beautiful is Sheila, and how beautiful is Peggy, and it doesn't have anything to do with religion. It has everything to do with connection and love. And then the “no Jesus” is obviously hilarious. She's telling a woman who basically has—her entire education is based on Jesus Christ, and she's like, No Jesus. And that's what I love about Peggy, and that's one thing about the show that I love, is that there's no case that she won't take, there's no patient that she won't see, and it's never about religion.

But going back to this moment, that was their goodbye as well. Sheila went on to finish her life out. And I can't imagine being Peggy, being so engaged and so a part of someone's death journey, and then you just say goodbye. You’ve done your part for them. And you move to the next person that needs your heart. So…

Elaine Appleton Grant 

And yet, you did the same thing.

Nikki Boyer

Oh, God, Elaine. Great, you're making me cry now. Aw. Yeah. True. Thank you for saying that. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

You're welcome.

How has producing and hosting Near Death changed you in a way that you didn't expect?

Nikki Boyer

I've never gotten my hands this dirty. I've never been this invested. And honestly I don't think I've ever worked as many hours or as hard on something as I have this. Dying for Sex, I had an amazing executive producer—Stephanie Jenz. I had Laura Donna Pelavoda. I had Jeanine Cornillot writing. I had Wondery—I had this powerhouse of people. And then when you start your own company, you're like, it's me and my three friends! We're gonna do everybody's job! And it gave me an appreciation for your sales, your marketing, your editor, your sound designer, your associate producers, your people that send the emails for the Zoom. The people that created what you and I are doing today, it takes a village. And when you start to do those jobs, you start to really have a deep respect and understanding for what other people do. So I have a whole new appreciation for the team and what the team does. So that's what I've gained. Yeah. For sure.

Elaine Appleton Grant

I do not normally talk about business, but because Dying for Sex was a Wondery show, with—as you said—the enormous resources of that network behind it, and then you started Dying For Media, and now it's a very entrepreneurial, small venture with a ton of work… You brought up advertising and marketing. There's a lot of talk about brand safety in podcasting. So what's less brand safe: sex or death?

Nikki Boyer

That's so funny. Because when I brought Dying for Sex to Wondery, they were like, Well, what about the title? Because brands don't really like death, and brands don't really like sex. And I was like, tough shit. Too bad. That's the title of the show. And at the time, the CEO of the company, Hernan Lopez, who's a dear friend of mine, he was willing to take the risk. And it was not an easy sell at first. People were like, ew, death and sex? Ew. 

But I think things have changed in the last four to five years. And I think now people are much more open about sex, and people are talking more about death. It's still a little bit of a sell. Having said that, I spent my entire career doing things that were brand friendly, right? I was the pop culture girl. I was on the red carpet. I was talking about what watch to get your dad on Father's Day. I was so brand safe. So after I hit 40, I was like, eff it. I don't care if a brand—the brands will find you when you make your mark. If you keep doing things that are quote unquote brand safe and you really want success that feels good in your body? I don't know if you can have both of them at the same time, because you almost have to prove it a little bit in order for the brands to go, oh, this is clicking. Let me go ahead and do an ad on a show about sex. 

And so I watched that happen in real time, as the numbers went up on Dying for Sex. Of people going, oh, people that listen to this do buy meal plan kits and do need mental health help and do like to go on vacation. So I think after doing this for so long, I gave less effs about the money part. Not because I was rich, but because I just couldn't be guided by what's the easy buck anymore.

Elaine Appleton Grant 

And I think it's—oh, it's at the heart of so many of the questions that we have when we start out to do something public. Right? And it's like, Oh, I'm gonna put my voice out there. I'm gonna put my story out there. It's so scary. And so even if you're not selling advertising, there's still those questions about what's safe and what’s not safe.

Nikki Boyer

100%. Yeah, what you're okay with your face and name and voice, mainly, being a part of. 

Elaine Appleton Grant  

Who's your dream guest for Sound Judgment? The next person who's sitting where you're sitting right now?

Nikki Boyer

Oh gosh, this is good. My goal for you is—because she's got her own show on Lemonada, and I've been listening and I love her—is Julia Louis Dreyfus. That's my goal.

Elaine Appleton Grant  

Yes. She's been on my list.

Nikki Boyer

I think she's got a lot to say about business, about storytelling, about women, about the brand stuff. And she wanted to do a podcast. She was craving to do a podcast about advice from older women wiser than me. 

Elaine Appleton Grant

Well, Nikki, thank you so much for your time and a fantastic conversation.

Nikki Boyer

This was lovely. I feel like—we laughed, we cried. I had therapy. I mean, I think I owe you some money for my first therapy session. Thank you for that.

Elaine Appleton Grant 

You're welcome. You're welcome. This one's on the house.

At the end of every episode, I give you a few of the many takeaways from these conversations. Here are today’s.

1. Nikki loves having uncomfortable conversations. She’ll ask almost anything, and she’ll share herself in order to create a welcoming, inviting environment. The result: healing conversations about the things that matter most. 
2. It takes a lot of character to admit to the obstacles that stand in our way of doing our best, most honest work. For Nikki, the obstacle was her mindset: Before podcasting, she says, she was an actress, a voice-over artist, and a TV personality who was always seeking the spotlight. Creating Dying for Sex changed all that. Now, she says, “I have this person’s story to tell and I can’t wait to share it with you.” She’s no longer chasing attention, but giving a gift. 
3. One thing Nikki has learned from doing podcasts about death? A lot of people wait to give themselves permission to do the thing they really want to be doing. And in the end, they regret having put it off. If there’s a project you’ve been putting off, don’t wait any longer. Give yourself permission and jump in.

That’s all for today. 

For the last few episodes, we’ve been talking with creators who elicit deeply moving, honest stories from their subjects. But what do when those stories are deeply moving, but they might not be true?

Clip of Karen Given

If she's lying about Celine Dion—she tells many, many Celine Dion lies—if she was lying about Celine Dion, why wouldn't she be lying about being sex trafficked as a child? Right? Like, I think that's a logical way for people to feel.

Elaine Appleton Grant

Next time on Sound Judgment, showrunner Karen Given and I dissect the making of Believable: The Coco Berthmann story. It’s a wild ride into the heart of an unusual scam.

Sound Judgment is a production of Podcast Allies. If you’ve been looking for a listener-first, story-first production partner, get in touch. Our email’s in the show notes and on our website, sound judgment podcast dot com. We’d love to work with you. 

Sound Judgment is produced by me, Elaine Appleton Grant. Audrey Nelson is our production assistant. Sound design and editing by Kevin Kline. Podcast management by Tina Bassir. And gratitude to the rafts of producers, editors, sound designers and other team members behind every great story. Without you, the world would be a less beautiful place.

See you next time, storytellers.